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Project Genesis

Discussion in 'General Astronomy Chat' started by BillP, Nov 30, 2017.

Project Genesis

Started by BillP on Nov 30, 2017 at 8:37 PM

9 Replies 1429 Views 1 Likes

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  1. BillP

    BillP Well-Known Member

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    Don't know if you have seen it, but this project is about seeding life in the Universe.

    https://astronomyconnect.com/forums...-factories-to-seed-the-galaxy-with-life.4692/

    I have often thought about this so am glad to see others are considering the project. The more and more we explore and investigate, the more we find no signs of any life. True we are just at the beginnings of serious exploration and are still very much stuck in our own solar system. But of all the planets one would have thought that at least microbial life, or fossils of it, could have been expected on Mars. But to date, nothing.

    If in fact biogenesis is an exceedingly rare event, regardless of how many potential planetary systems there are, then I feel it would be humankind's responsibility to work to spread this potentially rare gift of life we have to other worlds. Of course, there should be a thorough standard protocol used to mark a potential seed planet as being lifeless before we do it as you would not want to upset a current life source that is in place and trying to expand.

    Anyway, I feel this is an excellent project and more exciting than most. How do you feel?
     
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  2. Mak the Night

    Mak the Night Well-Known Member

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    Until the discovery of exoplanets it was assumed that most planetary systems would be like ours; large gas giants a fair distance from their star and possibly a few 'Goldilocks Zone' rocky planets capable of sustaining an atmosphere. However, it seems our solar system is more an anomaly than statistically average.

    Biogenesis isn't rare, as far as we know, it's a singularity. This is a statistical improbability however and there must be some form of life elsewhere in the universe, and very possibly in our own galaxy. The odds against us being unique as a life bearing planet are literally astronomical.

    Personally I'm ambivalent about attempting to seed life on worlds around other stars. Firstly, we just don't have the technology yet, and secondly we don't really have enough knowledge yet. Even terraforming Mars or Venus may be a more realistic ambition. I'd wager Mars is a sterile planet that just didn't have enough time for any life to evolve.

    I believe life first evolved on Earth possibly around four and a half billion years ago. Which means the universe had at least nine point two billion years before that for life to evolve elsewhere. Statistically, the universe has probably beaten us to it anyway.
     
  3. BillP

    BillP Well-Known Member

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    I certainly understand the "numbers" argument, however I am not a fan (or believer) in quantity-conjecture logic when there is no data to support it. We live in an infinite universe with infinite possibilities and that being the case, very small probabilities are likely. So matters not if there are an infinite number of planets because this does not preclude, statistically, there being only one case. If we use the logic that just because there are a lot of circumstances (i.e., exoplanets) that because of the shear numbers there must be life elsewhere, well that is just as nonsensical as saying that because there are most likely an infinate numbers of planets elsewhere, so there must be life elsewhere, then there also must be a large number of human beings that are an exact copy of me also because with all those numbers my exact genetic makeup and upbringing cannot be unique! So you can see how one can really justify anything with a numbers argument. But alas I have no data indicating that the human DNA has ever been existent in any other organism than here on Earth. So regardless of the numbers of other planets, I cannot deduce or interpolate that "I" exist anyplace else. Just makes no sense the numbers-based arguments without other supporting data to bring some validity to it.

    If one wants to use statistics of numbers to do a prediction, they would need to have knowledge of the exact circumstances which allowed biogenisis to happen then make a case that those exact circumstances would indeed be possible given what is known about the formation of exoplanet systems. Minus that, there is no validity to the assumption that just because more worlds that this must mean that other life must exist. From a deductive standpoint, all we can say is that there is one world with life on it. Given that we have no clue how life came about here, we cannot predict, deduce, or interpolate that there is more elsewhere because we have no data to support the notion. I mean it is just as likely, that perhaps we had no biogenisis here on Earth at all, and that the only reason there is life here is that some civilization long ago did here just what this Project Genesis is contending. And if this is so, then who know what the circumstance might have been for that other civilization's life to begin was! Could have been a radically different environment for them and what they seeded here they engineered to work here. So the conjectures are really endless since we no nothing about biogenesis. Heck, we don't even know exactly when life first appeared here. Recent findings now suggest that microbial life was here on Earth while it was still molten!

    https://www.livescience.com/60537-oldest-evidence-of-life-found.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
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  4. Mak the Night

    Mak the Night Well-Known Member

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    Well, if I had to guess or make a conjecture, I'd probably statistically lean towards the likelihood of life happening in more than one place in the cosmos in the past thirteen or fourteen billion years or so. I'm not sure about infinite probabilities, I think that could be another debate. It reminds me of multiverse concepts or Hugh Everett's multi world interpretation, which are essentially subjective ontologies in many ways. Or at least subjective or proposed statistical thought experiments at best, as it may be argued that we have no real evidence the universe is actually infinite.

    Admittedly there's no evidence for life that we are aware of in the visible or observable universe that we can perceive. It's unlikely we will ever even explore our own galaxy fully enough to determine whether life only evolved on Earth. Of course, life could be unique to our planet, and unless we discover exobiology of some form we may never know. I don't think that being essentially ignorant of the way life first developed on Earth necessarily defines our paradigmatic view of life, its chemistry, or of biogenesis. Life and biogenesis may take many forms that we don't or can't totally comprehend, although I'm leaning towards infinite probabilities here I think. If it happened once, like it happened here (whatever the process), I'd say the odds are favourable for it happening elsewhere. Although, I must admit, I'm not a professional gambler or statistician lol.
     
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  5. BillP

    BillP Well-Known Member

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    I kind of look at it this way...there are probably many processes, that given the physics and circumstances and conditions of this universe, will have odds of happening more than once of let's say on the order of 1:1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. And of course there are other processes that may yield something with odds of 1:1 or 1:2. Just choose your odds. So if life is one of those things that is a rarer event to happen (biogenesis), then a bit of a rarer event to survive once it does get created, then a somewhat rare even to eventually be able to reproduce, etc., etc., then perhaps the current age of our universe is insufficient for it to be likely that there are more than one occurrence...or more than a handful in all the universe. So perhaps it will take a universe that is over 100 billion years old for life to be a less statistically rare thing. No one really knows since we've not found it anyplace and do not know how it starts. It's all just conjecture. Sure it would be cool if life was everywhere, but right now all we know is that it is no where we've looked with the tools we have. That being the case I'd rather seed lifeless places we know might sustain the life we have here just in case biogenesis is one of these ultra-rare processes.
     
  6. Mak the Night

    Mak the Night Well-Known Member

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    I think the chronological age of the universe is an interesting aspect to this. As you say, you can just choose your numbers with these kind of odds, especially concerning the likelihood of exoplanetary biogenesis. We do know the universe that we are aware of and can observe is thirteen or fourteen billion years old.

    The age of the Earth is approximately four and a half billion years I believe, and the first life appeared possibly four and a bit billion years ago (these are approximate figures lol). So we can infer that life can manifest itself within half a billion years of liquid water forming on a planet. As it did once, anyway.

    The quandary that we can't possibly answer yet is that if this event is inevitable given the right conditions, or is very statistically improbable. At least it gives us some form of time frame to base conjecture on. This reminds me a bit of Paley's Watch Analogy. I believe one of Hume's counters to this particular teleological argument was that although it is possible to compare a rock with a watch, the universe is a unique event as far as we know so can't actually be compared with anything. It is a distinct possibility that we are the first and only life in the entire cosmos.

    I'm not sure about the morality of seeding lifeless worlds. Not that I believe that there is any morality inherent in the universe. Morality is an abstract human construct. But I do wonder if we really have the right to spread life across the void. Not that I have any objections to it myself, it's just that I wonder if it would come back and bite us in the arse in some way. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

    Of course, it could be why we evolved in the first place, but that would imply teleological purpose to biogenesis, which is a whole other debate.
     
  7. BillP

    BillP Well-Known Member

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    Interesting point. But seems we have the right to crash things into Mercury and the Moon and Saturn? Leave space trash all over the solar system? Burn up Plotonium 238 reactor in Saturn's atmosphere, etc. (Note that between U.S. and Russia there are probably around 100 radio isotope generators abandoned in the solar system)?

    IMO there is no "morality card" to play here. If there is no life on another world, then we would just as much right to seed it with life as some country has the right to crash or lans a probe with a nuclear generator on it or a passing asteriod has a right to crash into it and devastate or destroy it. Perhaps this seems like a harsh attitude but I'm not exactly comfortable with some government or group of governments here on Earth dictating what free explorers can do in a place they do not own. The current Outer Space Treaty can say all it wants, but we all know that as soon as the first human colony becomes fully independent of Earth for anything, that that will be the day they claim ownership of the world they are on and warn Earthers that they need permission to visit or face arrest and imprisonment. So governments and explorers and probably even corporations will lay claim to things the moment the umbilical chord to Earth is no longer a necessity.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  8. Mak the Night

    Mak the Night Well-Known Member

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  9. BillP

    BillP Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the book recommendations!
     
  10. Mak the Night

    Mak the Night Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome Bill. Blish's 'Surface Tension' has been one of my favourite short stories since I first read it when I was at school. Olaf Stapledon was a hugely influential writer but is not really known now. Star Maker is a forgotten classic of genre science fiction.

    http://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/stapledon_olaf
     

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